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rick2047
08-17-2007, 02:26 AM
Hi all ,
I am New here ... and made a robot (Demo : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUVzaYITbY ) also ... Now I want to start working on Weebo .. remember Flubber (The Movie) .. It can be made, but not without your help.

It wud b able to fly .. would be having four high speed motor for hovering ..

The QUADROTOR : This has been made by lots of students all over the world and in India also .. I want to give it a personality ... I know Its gonna take long ... But I wud make It. I studied a lot ... for giving my imagination a shape.I need to do It Step By Step.

It wud be inside home only, wud be having vision, Wud be able to talk some in english, n many more functionalities..

First of all I need to Get High speed motor (May be Brushless, n its controller) abt 60000 rpm .... I want it from India .. cos outside India It wud be costly .... The best Site I ever visited is .. https://www.unitedhobbies.com n www.robotmarketplace.com .

So If any one knows about High speed motor plz Let me know ... If brushless motor than wid the controller also ... I made One controller of CD-Rom Motor .. wid .net software drive ... YOU wud be laughing it gave only 200rpm .. wid almost 0 torque. If anyone needs it to see I can post it here in download section...wid codes also ... you just need to know the logic, the concept .. rest wud be nothing for you..is it?
After geting this I wud be needing bidirectional ... or say 2way transmitter for it ... and lot more ... these wud be going on ... on response I wud put here, my every requirment for It (weebo).

PLZ HELP ( burn my desires)

Rahul

vikas
08-17-2007, 05:09 AM
QUADROTOR are expensive as hell :) ... whats you budget ?

Also i believe ull have a hard time sourcing parts from india ... start by hacking a simple 4 channel , gyro stabilized single rotor platform.

PS: Aerial robots crash and these can burn a huge hole in your pocket unlike their ground counterparts.

rick2047
08-18-2007, 12:19 PM
Hi,
Thanks for you nice n quick response ...:D
My budgt is till now abt 16,000INR but its flexible ... I need to do everything .. slowly n precisly getting all knowledge abt these.

But as you said it to me ... Also i believe ull have a hard time sourcing parts from india ... start by hacking a simple 4 channel , gyro stabilized single rotor platform.
I'll start from that only. :idea:

n I know If it fails It won't good! :cry:

Plz tell me more about it ... starting from link tutorial ... idea ... I am totaly unaware of 'simple 4 channel , gyro stabilized single rotor platform.' I know some about gyros .. but how single rotor will make hover the rest system .. how wud I control it .. as according to physics! .. I need atleast two rotor to cancel the system rotating torque. or I just have to make that one rotor to hover ... if this also happence ... wud be good for me ...

I need directions to work on… plz keep on touch … :D

Rahul

shashak
08-18-2007, 05:05 PM
u can get 9000 RPM @ 6volt motor very easly here only in India at very cheap rate but they are bit heavy, And Quad 's control system is main thing to work
Once i had also plan this,then i got to discover the rotors are spinning at around 1100 RPM, so these motor can also be used. May be i am wrong but never tried that.
btw if u know about Ashish Bhat ex IITB ("micromouse man of india"). He had build Quad successfully. Check his web page or contact him.
http://ashish.ideaforge.co.in/
But as admin had told u it is very expensive to build and need patience

asimov_18
08-19-2007, 12:29 AM
at 60000 rpm motor kae chithrae uud jayan gae . i guess u shold try series wound motos as at no load they move at dangerously high speed at times at destructive speed
hehe ha ha :)

shashak
08-19-2007, 08:48 AM
at 60000 rpm motor kae chithrae uud jayan gae.
i doubted
once Aman of everest coperation, Delhi had shown me a motor which he claim it is at 90,000 to 120,000 RPM so in a way these kind of motors are possible in small packaging.
but at these speed ~60000 the gear system (which is use in Quad) will wear out for sure.

rick2047
08-19-2007, 07:42 PM
Shashak Thanks a lot to provide the link...
Mr. Ashish did a lot of nice jobs thr. :D

plz check a link here ..

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/marketplace_ant_wmotors-bl.html

The motor can reach upto 65,000 rpm :D

To every visitor ...
plz help me finding this type of motor here in INDIA
If I get, wud be nice ...
otherwise It wud cost me about $102x45= ... about 4590INR ..per motor..
this will eat all my money. :|

I still want to know about .. :)

"a simple 4 channel , gyro stabilized single rotor platform."

quasar
08-20-2007, 08:59 PM
What Vikas means is a simplest helicopter.... without bothering about the change in angle of attack of the main rotor and a using a gyro to stablize the torque..

And Please dont change the attributes of the texts..

Quasar...

shashak
08-21-2007, 04:01 AM
8O :roll: 8O :roll: :?: :?: :?:

docel
08-23-2007, 12:02 AM
rick2047 and others.,

Quad or anyother flying platform with horizontal Propellers need large diameter small pitch blades. The number of blades is proportional to the RPM and Pitch. Newton's III law can be countered by using counter-rotating rotors.

Rick: you are misinformed!
You dont need 60k RPM for a vertical lift aircraft. Nor is it correct to use 60K RPM on a Quad Rotor system. Lift is not a function of RPM. Rather , it is a function of Bernoulli's principle. Helicopters and other horizontal rotor systems dont rely on the IIIrd Law.

What you need is a 3k to 5k RPM Propeller speed (for single Rotor system). A Quad rotor system requires a calculated net RPM of about 12 to 15krpm. This should be the geared down RPM and NOT the shaft RPM.

Rotor speed depends upon the rotor diameter and the pitch angle.

quasar
08-23-2007, 03:18 AM
@Docel, What exactly is the method(s) to make the propellor.
Can we make it ourself or do we need to procure them.
I have seen 12-15k rpm motors and high density batteries for reasonable rates but not the rotor...

docel
08-23-2007, 10:01 AM
Hi Quasar!
Rotors can be imported but they are'nt THAT difficult to make!!
It needs a LOT of patience , trial &eror and and tolerance for wasteage.........thats all.
http://www.roboticsindia.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1485&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Are you game???

rick2047
08-25-2007, 03:13 AM
thanks , Links were kool.some links were broken thr.
Now I want to make a pair of one side flat blade of bamboo.As described in the earlier links.
what is ment by 25% chord...pitch should be 6 deg.
For testing :
I have two brush motors. weight is about 200g, max rpm 16k, supply : 15V, 3A max as said by the shopkeeper in Kolkata.
(What If I use simple driving circuitry and mechanism … gear etc, a tiny wireless camera in sense of weight),
then what would be the required specifications for the propeller and possible max payload capacity for the single rotor system.

Well in case of 70K rpm motor I wanted to make the quadrotor of small diameter propeller (about 3 to 4") that's why I needed 70K rpm Motor ... cos some how I think the rpm is also related wid the lift .. as the equation below

Lift force = (.5) X (air density) X (V^2) X (area covered by rotating blade) X (lift coefficient)
On calculating I get
V^2 = 6.98 X (area covered by rotating blade)
Where weight I assumed 500gms and air density = 1.17KG/m3, coefficient=1.2
Here … what is V according to
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0015b.shtml
what it wud be in case of 16K and 70K rpm motor …
...I think area would be simple circle area. won’t it be?
If V is solved It can be related wid the rpm .. may be the angular velocity.
Plz help me in this equation .. relating propeller diameter, weight, torque, lift … etc

Can a simple DC motor 12V 500mA 2.4K can lift something on adding a propeller of very less weight? May be not I think.


Rahul

docel
08-25-2007, 09:17 AM
Rick!
Take my advise- forget the formulae :!: :!:
I havent followed a single calculation for all my Model aircraft i've built and helped build tilll now!
But they ALL fly, all the same!!

:arrow: Designing a Rotor blade via formulae is just not possible through a couple of Forum posts.....
Otherwise, there would have been hundreds of manufacturers, in India alone!! I've seen many who have burnt their hands ( not to mention pockets)

quasar
08-25-2007, 12:55 PM
Docelji..

Yeah, the Rotors seems to need lots of patience..
I am shifting myself to bangalore in couple of months...
certainly will start bugging you..

Quasar..

ice
08-25-2007, 08:24 PM
Rahul,
Did you see this link.
This guy made his own swash plates and rotor stuff on his own.

http://www.hack247.co.uk/2006/04/24/scratch-built-rc-helicopter/

He documents his parts well.

wjtaylor1
08-27-2007, 09:43 PM
Hi Rick,

I am a newly registered roboticsindia forum member, but have built several quadrotor helicopters, none of them I would call a robot yet.

By the way, I may have a different idea of a robot, than some folks. What I call a robot is a machine that navigates itself, with a minimal amount of instructions from it's master. I do not consider the radio controlled air, land, or sea vehicles robots, they are simply teleoperated machines. So in my mind, a robot has to think for itself to some degree and follow instructions, at least. With that said, a quad rotor robot is something of a challenge. Several of the members who have posted responses to your query have been right on target. The quadrotor robot is expensive, in terms of learning to gain the knowledge to build one, money for parts and test equipment to make one fly, then sensors to make it think and fly stable, and finally it should be safe!

A good place to start learning about the quadrotor aerial robotics in India would be www.uavindia.com/ankur/resume/resume.htm . The four rotor aerial robots they designed got best design in the International Aerial Robotics Competition, Association for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles Systems (AUVSI) in 2006 (pictures and article on this here: www.hinduonnet.com/2006/07/29/stories/2006072907792000.htm ).

Another good place to learn the theory would be Samir Bouabdallah, with the Autonomous Systems Lab at EPFL, web site, http://asl.epfl.ch/member.php?SCIPER=149618. Samir and his collegues have done the finest work on design and control theory and documentation, I think, of anyone in the world. Of all of the hundreds of articles I have read on this, I can say without a doubt, after reading about 20 such theses, that Samir's Doctoral thesis and Andre Noth's Doctoral thesis are the best documents to learn the control theory and how to design quad rotor robots. The also have posted much of their research on the web, including software, MatLab simulations, Simulink, numerous articles. Really great stuff, though some of it is in French.

Another really good place to learn about this is the UAVP work being done by Wolfgang Meheringer and friends. The Universal Aerial Video Platform (UAVP) is an open source project collaboration, which I think has the best stable platform for learning this. Circuits, sensors, motors, cameras, and software is all available. In fact the next aerial robot that I make will be based on this platform, simply modified to give it additional sensors, and a bigger brain (Germans tend to design on a minimalist perspective, so this paltform has everything to make a great, stable, aerial video platform, but still needs a human to fly it). The great thing about this UAVP is that once you get a version of the UAVP built (and there are probably 100 different versions), you have a great platform for an aerial robot.

After gathering several hundred journal articles on this subject, describing dynamics, control theory, electronics, etc., I purchased the Draganflyer V, which was overpriced, but was used by many of the researchers as their starting platform. After just a little time, I realized it would not have the ability to lift what I wanted to design, which was additional circuits, better camera, pan and tilt ability, ultrasonic sensors and speech control. But it was good to learn about quadrotors. What I wanted was eventually fully autonomous flight, GPS way point programming from a ground computer, with speech recognition, object avoidance, flight path navigation, and of course, high resolution video and at least 10 megapixel camera, with about a mile radius range for the video feed back and manual override. I am not there yet, maybe in another year or so I will be.

I was not able to get a circuit diagram for the Draganflyer, which I wanted to modify to a robot, using PICs, additional sensors, etc. So, it only flies via manual radio control. Since that time, I custom built a quadrotor platform for a possible robot, using 4 brushless motors, 4 speed controllers, 3 gyroscopes, 3 mixers, and 6 channel receiver (2 channels for camera pan and tilt), and purchased an inertial measurement system and flight computer from Inertial Solutions, two Lithium polymer batteries. The basic package for the 2nd quadrotor flight platform (all parts except the flight computer and inertial measurement unit - imu system) cost about $500 US dollars, with the flight computer and imu it costs $4500, including batteries, transciever pairs, etc. That quad rotor also weighed 3.5 pounds without the camera. It also took about 1500 hours of research to design and put together, test, re-program, and essentially served as a learning test bed for this type of flight platform.

Anyway, let me know how it goes.

Good luck.

Joe

wjtaylor1
08-27-2007, 10:05 PM
Hi Rahul,

As you could see the quad rotor project may eat your money up real quick. The helicopter that Ice wrote about looks like a great starting point for an aerial robot. If you are also still looking for a quad rotor, which someone wrote was expensive as hell (he was right), you may also look at www.lipoly.de under UAVP, sets. This site also has a huge assortment of motors, sensors, circuits. Another good place to look would be www.sparkfun.com. And check out the Seattle Robotics Club, a medical doctor made a less expensive 4 rotor helicopter, I think it was called the bxflyer four rotor helicopter, but I do not think it was really a robot, just a platform for one.

Joe

rick2047
08-27-2007, 11:56 PM
Dear wjtaylor1 n ice,
Only Thanks won't work .. A huge thanks. :D
In my case also its not fully automatic. What I thought/planned is :

:arrow: Hardware
The quadrotor with cam (pan tilt), having some local sensors on the system for avoiding collision, Simple PWM(Brushed)/Counter Speed(Brushless) controller, RF transmitter receiver/Bluetooth, PC interface, Wireless mic and speaker.
Here RF is OK but I want to work on USB Bluetooth. But for now I need to concentrate on Blades.
:arrow: Software
The .Net software platform for MOTOR control, voice program, Cam vision Analyzer … and then the expected response from it. :oops:
Motor Control(In case of Software), Voice Program has been done discreetly.

I think blades, motor control(In case of Hardware) and vision would headache for me. :?

Long way to go … Right now working on cheap efficient rotor blade.

After doing these all I would start working on its brain .. so that it would be fully ONE system … I mean automated ... but still not fully automated (till now,… let see what happens).

Meanwhile I will be putting some Pics of my current work.

Rahul

wjtaylor1
08-28-2007, 04:18 AM
Hello again Rahul,

A lot of work has been done on blades and motors. Again I encourage you to read Samir Bouabdallah's thesis and check out the UAVP site, especially Wolfer's stuff. Samir (and his associate Dr. Andre Noth) describes how to design and select motors, blades, as well as everything else. On the other hand, the German UAVP blades are the same ones that I had used for my last Quadrotor design. They coincidentally were working on the same thing I was and if I had known 2 years ago about what they were doing, it would have saved me at least 1000 hours of work (I am not exaggerating) and thousands of US dollars too. The blades they use are simply nylon 10 inch diameter with a 4.5 pitch (10x4.5) matched counter rotating pairs, fit right on a 3 mm shaft for electric motors, available from www.lipoly.de . The blades are not the most efficient, but I spent many hours researching blades, trying different ones, looking for counter-rotating pairs, and those are less than $4 US each. Hard to beat.

You can get a BM2409-18 motor (see file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/My%20Documents/Documents/01639-Files%20-%20Quadrotor%20X-4%20Project/DraganEater/BM%202409-18%20Motor/BM%202409-18%20Motor.htm) for less than $10 US each but you still need an Electronic Speed Controller (ESC).

The BM2409-18 is a great cheap outrunner brushless motor and you can get 10,500 rpm with 18 volts. It will way outperform and last longer than any of the brushed motors I know of and it does not weigh too much. Standard PWM control is what I have used, as do just about everyone else. Using four of these motors and the 10x4.5 blades, I get over 700 grams of thrust from each motor/propeller using a 11.1 volt lipoly battery. Outrunner motors run with less heat, in general, so their performance does not change too much over time in flight, as the other brushless motors and brushed motors. They also produce a lot more torque, so they do not need a gear reducer to spin the blades. They also react fairly fast to control signals. You will find this very important when testing your design, because the quad rotor is inherently unstable, and needs a good control system and fast response, powerful motors to fly. Trust me on this, I crashed a few of them, trying to take short cuts. Even though they are real cheap, brushed motors produce a lot more heat (because of the friction contact between the brushes and the contacts for the coils), wear out more quickly (also because of the brushes and heat), do not produce as much power, and do not respond as quickly as a brushless motor of the same voltage rating. And the outrunner brushless motors have higher torque and still respond fast enough and are a lot cheaper (if you look around) than the in-runner brushless motors, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_motor, which is OK and simple description of the advantages of these.

My first quadrotor used 3 hobby Gyros and 3 mixers, like for RC helicopters, connected to 4 ESCs (to motors) with a standard 6 channel RC FM receiver (2 spare channels for the camera pan and tilt), but this cost more than using the UAVP control board with sensors, and is harder to tune (getting it to fly right is tricky). I strongly recommend that you save up and use a PIC microcontroller with spark fun sensors, and even start with the UAVP board similar to the Wolfer (UAVP board). You will save a lot of time using their controller and re-programming it and the sensors are cheaper than any of the others I know of and they have tested it (go to their site and watch their videos and I think you will agree).

The UAVP motors and speed controllers are more expensive than what you may be able to get roaming the hobby RC web sites. But the UAVP board will work with the other motors also, with a little careful experiment. Also, the UAVP circuit schematic is on line, if you just look and read, and download. All of their source code (C++) software is too, so you can print it out and flow chart it to learn the math for the control theory. It is mostly in German (a little English translation but not all of it), but I found it easier to learn German than to design this stuff from scratch. And translating from German is kind of fun. Same with French, when it comes to Samir's stuff. Unlike schools around the world, the schools in the USA do not really teach Americans to learn any other language (they barely teach English), so if I can do it, then anyone can with a little effort.

Best regards,

Joe

rick2047
09-12-2007, 07:48 PM
hi guys,
I m stuck in my IT training :wink: ... will be connected soon :P .. work stoped at least for 3 months frm now... then will start it again. :idea:


Rahul

pratikmahale
10-10-2007, 01:06 PM
hi,
Gala Electronics - Lamington road, Mumbai, have a motor with aurofan (which they told me its used in remote controlled auroplan) . The cost of unit is Rs. 1500/- . I think if u r from mumbai u can visit Gala Electronics

pratik

rick2047
12-05-2007, 12:09 PM
Well Started working on Weebo :

http://www.roboticsindia.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13768#13768

-Rahul

pintoo2006
01-21-2008, 11:56 PM
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