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godslayer
03-14-2010, 01:24 AM
dude when is the ARP coming out? we all have been waiting for it eagerly...it hurts more that you've made promises to the community that remain unfulfilled rather than making any..i heard the arp is going to be concrete stuff but seriously, it was finished quite sometime back but still we arent getting any updates on the process? thats rude...

i guess we might just have to go for mr avinash's more expensive platforms...

vikas
03-14-2010, 03:25 AM
Hi man

We had board made , but the quality of soldering was sub standard. We do not want to deliver substandard products.

Our plan was to launch our shop tomm , but things just not going right. But have faith things are in motion.

Building a Usefull Robot Kit under 1k is no easy task :) .

avinash_g
03-14-2010, 10:53 AM
@Vikas

Please don't mind this Vikas.

We hope latter the customers don't have to ask "Hey, I Ordered an ARP Month Back and haven't received it yet?"

Because you have lots of "other" works to do and things always don't go right (exactly the current condition, like poor soldering).

@Godslayer

Thanks for considering our Products! But please please don't call them "expensive". If you wan't to see expensive things see this link

Atmel AVR 40 PIN Devboard with Serial Programmer
http://www.sunrom.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=35_52&products_id=140

Similar product can be purchased from eXtreme Electronics @ Rs 1200 i.e. Less than Half the price.
And the cost Includes Shipping and Packing Too !!!
http://shop.extremeelectronics.co.in/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=98

With two added advantage
The programmer will be USB Port Based (unlike Sunroms wich is Serial Port Based!!!)
The Dev Board has free prototyping area.

And BOTH our products are assembled using professional PCB Machinery thus NO SOLDERING Problems AT ALL !!!

We know many customers who were previously buying from Sunrom found our service Far ahead of them

Also Vikas makes slight mistakes when he calculates the cost of a product using the BOM. The result will only make the course of ARP a little harder (as it is the case of its birth i.e. slightly difficult). Actually he only adds up the costs of all components + PCBs + Assembly charges + small profit. But as he may be knowing that things are not always right! Some examples are

>> Total Batches of PCBs having design errors (about Rs 1000 to 4000 loss immediately)
>> In Best case 10% of assembled PCBs don't work (My worst case was 50% PCBs of Rs 700 each)
>> wrong Components arrives
>> damages during transport. Thus we have to give complete replacement to the user.
>> Lost consignments (rare but I had one). And as per our policy we have to give a fresh new product again.

Have a look at "Ding & Dent" Section at Spark Fun

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?c=100

http://extremeelectronics.co.in/temp/crap1.jpg

http://extremeelectronics.co.in/temp/crap2.jpg


See the expensive two layer PCBs with all those EXPENSIVE Components and MCUs Installed !

Ever thought Who Pays for them ???

akshay66
03-14-2010, 12:06 PM
Never thought about this!!!!

Just two questions you said that the total batches of PCB go wrong. So isn't it the duty of supplier to supply it again free of cost??

&

I don't think you alone manage the extreme electronics.So how people many are there with you??

godslayer
03-14-2010, 12:11 PM
well mr avinash a thing to consider that vikas and his team are trying to run a business for the first time.so you can understand they are bound to have problems(unlike you who has "GARG" gotra or is a "BANIYA" like me :P ) well what avinash said was very right.. you must consider a few things like mentioned before to make sure you dont run into losses.well at ths stage i shouldnt maybe brand it as ARP-Arp Rumour Progession....

As per your products, i understand that you are giving our highly professional kits i have seen your products and i am sure they are none less than ones sold at lady ada or sparkfun or any other internationally reowned shop.I've been promised a review kit by mr. rao which ill be glad to review and i want to see how affordable can one make robotics while keeping the price as a constraint.maybe then i will be actually able to compare your kit with what RI has to offer.not assuming which is better and which isnt.

pkshima
03-14-2010, 12:14 PM
That was informative Avinash !!!
Thanks !!!

godslayer
03-14-2010, 12:14 PM
well as per the wronged boards, well you can salvage the parts again and reuse them on other board!

rao
03-14-2010, 12:28 PM
well as per the wronged boards, well you can salvage the parts again and reuse them on other board!

We don't want to give out boards which are not professional. We don't want you guys to later put pictures on RI and say "This is what you get for cheap...crap".

We are making sure that if we give out stuff, they are top of the line and still affordable. Unfortunately, the soldering guy turned out to be a sham.. and if the delay hurt you.. we apologize for the delays.

But we believe in being late than being sorry later.

Rao

avinash_g
03-14-2010, 12:30 PM
"Just two questions you said that the total batches of PCB go wrong. So isn't it the duty of supplier to supply it again free of cost??"

@akshay66

I said design error not fab error! So its the burden of designer (that is our people).

Also in business, I belive good relation is more important than money. So even if my fabricator gives be wrongly made PCB (fab errors) I won't ask him for a replacement. Or my supplier gave me 16x1 LCD instead of 16x2 lcd I won't be returning it. You realize the importance of good business contact in time of crisis. I can illustrate each thing by real life example BUT this is not a bussiness forum !!! So better leave it or Mods will stab me!


unlike you who has "GARG" gotra or is a "BANIYA" like me :P

Hey man this is not my family bussiness! It is just 2 years old. Our first product was ordered on 2 April 2008. And I am 23 years old.

avinash_g
03-14-2010, 12:38 PM
well as per the wronged boards, well you can salvage the parts again and reuse them on other board!

@Godslayer

Ha ha ha ... !!!

Completely unprofessional and unpractical solution. Ever tried desoldering a PTH double layer PCBs. The more economical solution is to throw them out. PCBs are always soldered at mass volume at least 100 or so. And components should be fresh, new and of high quality.

If you need I can mail you a 100 ZIF sockets for free but all are in PHT PCBs !!! Tell me the time you need to desolder it. I my idea their is no MASS desoldering equipments (unlike mass soldering equipments)

godslayer
03-14-2010, 08:11 PM
@Godslayer

Ha ha ha ... !!!

Completely unprofessional and unpractical solution. Ever tried desoldering a PTH double layer PCBs. The more economical solution is to throw them out. PCBs are always soldered at mass volume at least 100 or so. And components should be fresh, new and of high quality.

If you need I can mail you a 100 ZIF sockets for free but all are in PHT PCBs !!! Tell me the time you need to desolder it. I my idea their is no MASS desoldering equipments (unlike mass soldering equipments)

you mean you've taken off all the parts off except the zif sockets if thats what you're offering(i mean what about atmegas and stuff)?



Well that might be unprofessional for you. but you have any idea how much you can save from them? well not... as per mailing me 100 ZIF sockets, i dont need them as i already have my dad's workshop where i can find all sorts of things for free aswel. well i guess you can sell them for soldering desoldering just like sparkfun is selling it it might be helpful for some guy atleast well, if you have already offered that i might aswel take up the trash away from you someday.they're like little boxes of treasure for me :P.. well not only pcbs.. i am ready to take everything that seems TRASH for you due to wronged designs or problem including motors etc(i agree wrong designs might've killed few components itself and will take round an hour to desolder one of the pcb to get parts).......

well ill be glad to take those away if you are'nt asking money for it.in india its all about money honey... sometimes due to price constraints one has to reach cheap alternatives 90% of whatever i made till date on dotted/toner transferred pcbs is made by recycled parts from my dad'd workshop.

http://www.electro-tech-online.com/general-electronics-chat/35602-mass-desoldering.html


well that thing aside.. i am willing to look over what RI has to offer in "CHEAP" segment of robotics and would love to compare what you are offering in the same price segment afterall thats all the thread is about.

akshay66
03-14-2010, 08:42 PM
A million dollar advice Avinash. Thanks Alot!!

pkshima
03-15-2010, 01:03 AM
If you need I can mail you a 100 ZIF sockets for free but all are in PHT PCBs !!! Tell me the time you need to desolder it. I my idea their is no MASS desoldering equipments (unlike mass soldering equipments)

Well how about holding the board upside down and applying flame from a propane torch or something like that. I guess the ZIF sockets will just fall down.
Surely the boards will be fried but maybe if its fast enough, the ZIF sockets will be saved.

pkshima
03-15-2010, 01:08 AM
@Rao & Vikas

Why not sell the platform as DIY kits.
I always thought that to be the reason behind the decision to use non SMT parts and PCB.

vikas
03-15-2010, 02:42 AM
@avinash_g - Thx man some points i did not consider ... nice for you to bring them out.
@pkshima - Yep ours is a hackable platform , not much fixed other than the RiDuino and it shield.

Well My plan of action is a little different i don't want to give a kit like what others are giving ( Say Robokits , Robosoft or Tri ) ... I want to give users a mobile breadboard :). By that i mean i want the user to be complete flexibility in doing what he wants ... and we will be building robots by putting sensors in place and building circuits around them.

The Kit might not be as high quality as the expensive ones but I should love it and be satisfied. And users should be able to hack it to what they want .

Also i want to give it below Rs 1000 if possible... Mobile Platform + USB Programmable board + basic experimentation kit.

And im doing it because i Love robotics and not because i want to make money out of fleecing college kids, So profits are not a real concern.

I and Rao are involved in commercial projects which will get us more returns anyway. Our main Aim here is to Change the Rules of the Game and make robotics Actually affordable and fun !!!

And the Biggest Advantage on our side is you guys,I bellive Successful Open platforms are initiated by individuals but are built by communities. For ex if 20 of you guys blog about a robot using our platform , We have more documented robots using our kit than anyone else in India.

rao
03-15-2010, 11:44 AM
And the Biggest Advantage on our side is you guys,I bellive Successful Open platforms are initiated by individuals but are built by communities. For ex if 20 of you guys blog about a robot using our platform , We have more documented robots using our kit than anyone else in India.


Well Said.

akshay66
03-15-2010, 12:52 PM
Agree with Rao....

akshay66
03-15-2010, 05:16 PM
Past some days i have been coming across some threads which made differences between all of us.Simple threads convert into discussion & then teams form.This is robotics forum.I would like that this discussion ends here.

rao
03-15-2010, 05:27 PM
Well, this thread was about delays. We apologize to those who were annoyed and ask for a little more time ( 7 days at the max).

End of Discussion.

Rao